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Tail docking - stupid law!

Tail docking - stupid law!

Postby Beer Hunter » Sat Feb 14, 2009 9:38 pm

Guys,

What is all this nonsense over tail docking then? I honestly couldn't believe it when they introduced this stupid law!!! :thdn:
While I support the idea that dogs should not be changed for cosmetic purposes, the ban on docking working dogs here in Scotland is a poor decision.

Take my springers as a great example. Mum, "Shandy", is close to 4 years old now and has worked for 3 years. Not once in that time has she damaged her tail.

Being a great wee dog, I really wanted a pup from her but when the tail docking ban came in I thought long and hard over it. Having weighed up the arguments I decided that although there was a risk of a pup damaging its tail working that it would be just the odd thing - after all, springers are always hurting themselves for fun! :grin:

Anyway, we had a litter from her last summer and we kept "Dave" who is a lovely bright and bold dog who is taking well to his early training. Here he is with mum.
Image
Image
Dave is on the right in both pics.

Unfortunately I was wrong about the tail docking. He is injuring himself almost each and every time we are out and most times comes back with blood splattered over his back. The tip of his tail is now a mess as you will see in the pictures below. The hair is now almost gone from the end and it is hard, scabby and pussy / bleeding all the time.
Image
Image
Image

I've tried to keep it clean and cut down on his exercise, but nothing seems to work.
All that now seems possible is to have the end amputated which is now a painful process for the dog and should have been done painlessly at a couple days old :mad:

Kev.
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Re: Tail docking - stupid law!

Postby hungryrob » Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:35 pm

Shame about the tail caper; truly another law to discriminate against us :mad:

Great pics of the dogs though :thup:
Brown trout fishing and accommodation in rural Perthshire; look at http://www.laighwood.co.uk
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Re: Tail docking - stupid law!

Postby bigtedzzr » Sun Feb 15, 2009 12:13 am

Thats two beautiful dogs there Kev , I have always fancied one but don't think I would be able to do it justice , not enough work for the poor thing,
My sister has one of the smaller version can't remember what kind of spaniel but it is so keen to work that if your not watching it like a hawk it F##ks off and will not come back, She has tried everything even offered it to me but if I can't trust a dog then it's no good to me!
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Re: Tail docking - stupid law!

Postby polski » Sun Feb 15, 2009 8:34 pm

The most ludicrous law regarding "animal welfare" ever passed :mad: I've seen a few undocked working spaniels, not a pretty sight,flanks completely covered in blood.
If they have to go through the amputation process, it's a damn sight more traumatic than being docked at 3 days old.
If this law was ever passed in England, I would stop working spaniels.

Rick.
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Re: Tail docking - stupid law!

Postby spaniels » Sun Feb 15, 2009 9:26 pm

Wow Dave has turned into a really handsome chap !!

There's a new study into tail damage that we are proposing gets put to the powers that be, Airlie Bruce Jones is leading it and has emailed the survey out to people, basc have also mentioned it in member emails, would be happy to send it out to anyone who wants a copy so we can try and turn round this stupid law !

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Re: Tail docking - stupid law!

Postby Beer Hunter » Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:58 am

There was no way round it - "Dave" was taken to the vets this morning to have the tail docked under general anaesthetic. As with any operation under a 'general' there is always a risk and I'm sitting here nervously waiting for the call.
Even when he gets home, he will be in pain for some time.

I really am fuming at this stupid law!!! :kill: :kill: :kill:
He could have had it snipped off at a few hours old and felt nothing. Now he has had months and months of pain and an operation under general. Why the hell do city dwelling politicians have the right to put my dog through this!!! :mad:

Nicola, I have been one of the BASC's strongest supporters, but the more I have to do with them, the less I respect them as an organisation. Without exception, every one of my mails are seemingly ignored. When I phone them I can rarely get through to the correct person and calls are never returned. If by the miracle of chance I do get through to the right person, they are usually ineffectual and unable to offer anything tangible.
As they were asking about tail docking issues, I e-mailed them a link to this thread. As usual, not even a courtesy acknowledgement.
After many years, I'm thinking of taking my money elsewhere upon my renewal this year. I'm certain that the BASC's political lobbying and insurance are second to none, but they have completely forgotten how to communicate with their members.

[/rant]

Still worried about my dog under operation now :(

Kev.
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Re: Tail docking - stupid law!

Postby Foxy » Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:35 pm

Could not agree more with you on both accounts (law & BACS )
Dont be to concerned about your Spaniel he should be fine, they are as hard as nails as i am sure you are aware.
Problem is they become part of the familiy.
Andy
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Re: Tail docking - stupid law!

Postby Beer Hunter » Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:48 pm

I re-mailed the BASC earlier today with the following:

Sir / Madam,

I’m disappointed that no one within the BASC extended the common curtsey of acknowledging the mail below. Unfortunately, in my experience, it does seem to be the norm within the BASC these days.

That said, I though it may help your campaign to know that my dog is currently under general anaesthetic having a substantial chunk of his tail removed.

Sincerely,
........

They actually gave a response:
Dear Kevin
I am sorry that you didn’t get a reply. I have personally do not think I have received an email from you before, although things do get sent to the spam box, but this email did not, so I cannot think why I did not get an earlier email. I apologise on behalf of the gundog department if you have been overlooked and have forwarded to James and Jamie.

We are working on the problem, it is a difficult issue, if too much fuss is made regarding damage of dogs in the shooting field their answer may be to stop shooting or using dogs in the shooting field. This not what we want and therefore we have to follow the docking issue with caution.

I can assure you though we are following this up and I will ask the gundog co-coordinator to bring you up to speed on the issue to date.

Regards
Jan Andrews

I responded:
Jan,

Thank you for your response.

I must say that the “softly, softly” attitude suggested in your mail below does not sit well with shooting men I know. Fear of complaining for fear of making things worse is not campaigning or politics as I know it – it is a mark of self accepted weakness.
As law abiding citizens we are tired of being told what we can and can’t do our loved and cared for working animals. Our guns too for that matter! We know what is best for our dogs, not a pen pusher who’s only concern is being re-elected.

On this subject the city bound politicians need to be told, clearly so, to stand down immediately.

For goodness sake, they brought in this law to prevent unnecessary mutilation and pain to our animals and it has exactly the opposite effect – a fact graphically illustrated by the link in my original mail. I know that “Dave” is anything but an isolated incident as the vets informed me that cases of damaged tails requiring surgery have gone through the roof.

In this very country we allow much greater disfigurement to be carried out upon our own children! Certain religions are legally allowed to have large chunks of healthy tissue removed from their boys penises for purely religious / cosmetic reasons!
Tail docking must be put in perspective and we expect the BASC to put the case forward in the strongest possible terms.

I attach a picture of a very groggy, hacked off and sore “Dave” on return from the vets some 30 minutes ago – a dog who could have done with greater support from the organisations we, the shooters, pay for.

Sincerely,
.......

dave after op.jpg
(click for a bigger pic)
and a further reply has been received:
Kevin,

I have had your e-mailed forwarded from Jan Andrews.

I equally apologise for the apparent lack of response; I am copied all e-mails sent to gundogs at BASC and have never seen these. I have however seen them in the sporting press.

Jan rightly states that BASC have a sensitive spam filter and I can tell you it doesn’t like forums or large photos. I can only assume your original was rejected from the system. I will endeavour to establish which.

Tail docking is a sensitive issue both North and South of the border and we are most fortunate in England and Wales in that BASC won the tail docking exemption. I am assured by my Scottish colleagues that the tide of unrest has started to break on the Executive and that we may establish an exemption in Scotland too in the near future.

Thank you for taking the time to send the e-mail and can I suggest that you forward this to our Scottish office. E- Mail address below. Its good evidence towards the solution.


Kindest Regards
Jamie


Jamie,

Please feel free to use the mails and forum post in any way you wish if you feel it may strengthen the case for an exception for working dogs.

I have updated the forum with links form our communications.

Sincerely,
....



Perhaps I have been a bit harsh on the BASC. It has been an emotional day.
I stand by my penultimate reply though - they do need to take a stronger line.

Kev.
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Re: Tail docking - stupid law!

Postby spaniels » Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:59 pm

Glad Dave is home safe and well, there is also a tail survey being done as mentioned before by Airlie Bryce Jones, also the landward programme this week covers the issue:-

I copy Airlie's latest email below, might also be good if you could make him aware of Dave's story I only hope we can upturn this stupid law before more spaniels suffer

Basc lost James which was a great shame it was him who did a lot of the early campaigning and got me on landward th first time, he's gone to the deer commission now I think

Nicola




latest email :-

Please note the Landword time and date of Friday 3rd April at 7.00pm


Relugas House

Dunphail

Forres

Moray IV36 2QL

Tel 01309 611 319 Email dogtails@abjcon.co.uk



Dogtail Survey 08/09 Spaniels & HPRs

Dear Nicola,



I am sure you are as concerned as we are about the continuation of the tail docking ban for our working dogs in Scotland . The Dogtail Survey 08/09 is designed to gather the evidence required to show what its effect is on working Spaniels & HPRs dogs. The Survey has been running since January and the returns to date are up to nearly half the number of dogs we require to get statistical validity. Thank you to those who have already answered.



As we had expected there are a frighteningly high number of young dogs with long or full tails that have received serious tail tip injuries. Some were injured just in training but mostly in the first weeks of real work in the 2008 season. A lot of these young injured have been unable to work the whole season and many of them have already had amputations during December and January. So much for Animal Welfare!



On Friday April 3rd at 7.00 pm viewers of the new Landward program will see a terrible example of the direct effect of the tail docking ban. Poppy, an 18 month old full tailed Springer Spaniel was repeatedly injured in her tail tip in her first working days in October and November last year. Due to infection complications she has had to have 3 amputations and now has no tail at all. The dog and her owner were filmed for the new series of programs last week.



It is vital that we get the other half of the Spaniel and HPR owners to complete the survey so please fill in forms for your dogs if you have not done so already and chase up any other working dog owners you know to do so too. Every completed form filled in for Spaniels and HPRs strengthens our case because they help to build an accurate record of the confirmation and activities of our working dogs. From your entries we can get the evidence required to prove how vulnerable the full tailed working dogs are and how effective is the protection of a shortened tail.



We already have a clear picture emerging from the returns so far of what happens to young full tailed dogs but I must emphasise that we need the details for all the working Spaniels or HPRs that each respondent has. Obviously most of them are going to be uninjured - but we still need to know about them because they complete the population record.



Only by getting the short tailed and uninjured in really high numbers can we show the MSPs, the media and those who support the ban the evidence that short tailed dogs do not get injured and the full tails just do. It may be obvious to us but it certainly is not to the policy makers in the Veterinary Associations, the SSPCA or the MSPs who listen to them. In the interests of the Welfare of our Dogs we need numbers and numbers we must get.



Enclosed are the Survey forms but if you want more printed copies please let me know how many and who to send them to.



I look forward to hearing from you and your dog working friends in the next few days.



Yours sincerely

Airlie Bruce Jones
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Re: Tail docking - stupid law!

Postby Beer Hunter » Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:02 pm

Thanks Nicola, I'll mail Airlie.

Kev.
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Re: Tail docking - stupid law!

Postby Beer Hunter » Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:06 pm

Well, my poor dog is going back in tomorrow for another operation. The wound on the end of his tail hasn't healed right and it needs another lump taken off.
More pain - as if the current law which caused him pain for 8 months of his 11 month life is not enough.

Thanks again to our brilliant politicians. May your next defecation be a hedgehog :kill:

Kev.
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Re: Tail docking - stupid law!

Postby Beer Hunter » Mon May 11, 2009 8:50 pm

Update - the last operation also seems to have been a failure as at today's check-up the skin is literally falling from his tail.

He needs yet another operation and this one will be his last chance - if this one fails he will have to be put down.

F****** brilliant.

Kev.
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Re: Tail docking - stupid law!

Postby GULA-GULA22 » Mon May 11, 2009 10:29 pm

Beer Hunter wrote:Update - the last operation also seems to have been a failure as at today's check-up the skin is literally falling from his tail.

He needs yet another operation and this one will be his last chance - if this one fails he will have to be put down.

F****** brilliant.

Kev.


Fingers crossed for you and your dog.

Typical of our PC society that these, so called,"necessary measures" have a detrimental effect.


Steve
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Re: Tail docking - stupid law!

Postby PopGun » Tue May 12, 2009 12:59 am

I think tail docking should be allowed,
but only done by a vet and the pup drugged or the tail frozen,
I have seen tail docking first hand and it never appeared as painless as people make out,
I will admit I ignorantly agreed with the ban as there were to many dogs being maimed for the sake of vanity,
I hope your dog makes a full recovery,and the law altered to consider the real needs of true working dogs.
one would have thought, one would have found a better way to pass the time, in the middle of infinity
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Re: Tail docking - stupid law!

Postby plugg » Thu May 14, 2009 10:12 am

Beer Hunter wrote:Update - the last operation also seems to have been a failure as at today's check-up the skin is literally falling from his tail.

He needs yet another operation and this one will be his last chance - if this one fails he will have to be put down.

F****** brilliant.

Kev.


I am very sorry to hear that this may be the case Kev. I have never agreed with the law regarding working dogs and the decision should be, quite rightly, left with the owner of the working dog.

I hope all goes well.

Phil
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