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Shot Placement On Foxes With a .17HMR

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Re: Shot Placement On Foxes With a .17HMR

Postby Bushdog » Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:37 am

It is, but I would probably only ever need one box...

Half of which would sit in the back of my ammo safe along with lots of other half-boxes of stuff I had a hankering to try at one time or another!! :Facepalm:
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Re: Shot Placement On Foxes With a .17HMR

Postby Stewartyg » Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:30 am

Stinkfoot wrote:
Stewartyg wrote:
mathspete wrote:South Yorkshire will not condition ANY rimfire calibre for foxes, end of story. When out rabbiting with both 22lr and HMR I have had to decline shots on foxes because I want to keep my ticket :thup: . However if they happen to wander in front of the 204 or the 250 its goodnight charlie :grin:


We are the same here!!


Are you sure?
I had heard the same thing about our police but thought there would be no harm in asking. I had a long conversation with the head of the firearms department about it and, although reluctant at first, I guess he thought I was trustworthy enough to stick to my side of the bargain and granted me conditioning for fox with WMR. I had no intention of asking for fox with HMR but it seemed obvious he wouldn't have agreed to that since his primary concern was muzzle energy. IIRC, he said that 500 ft/lbs was the acceptable minimum for fox.
My argument was that I wasn't looking for a fox calibre, but rather the authority to shoot fox with a rabbit gun if I happen to come across one at close quarters. He asked me to call back in a few hours while he considered my request. I'm pleased to say the answer was yes.
If you don't ask..........


If I was to go and argue with them there is a chance you might get it on a wmr however I was only allowed a .22lr for the first last year (due to our gun laws being over strict in the past) so they were probably allowed I wouldn't have the experience to place the shot correctly even tho I had been shooting with an air rifle for 10 years!! I was told if I put fox on the application form it would be denied.

Our fao has changed recently but the last one didn't have a clue-all he did was make sure the safe was bolted to the wall and the guns in the safe matched your ticket-if you asked a question he just referred to his rule book and that was that!!
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Re: Shot Placement On Foxes With a .17HMR

Postby leadpig » Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:32 am

plugg wrote:£28 for 100 rounds?

That is shocking!

its not that bad,ive head of people paying £36 per 100 in the uk before for normal hmr
Sidebyside wrote:Leadpig is probably right,( though I hate to admit that :mad: ;) ) .


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Re: Shot Placement On Foxes With a .17HMR

Postby 1in9 » Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:09 am

Bushdog wrote:1 in 9 - yes I've tried the 20gn hollow points on rabbits and to be honest I can't tell a difference from the Vmax.
I would like to try the FMJ bullets that I believe are available - not on animals, but in side by side penetration tests.


I've shot both the CCI 20gn Hollow Points and 20gn FMJ and they group very similar.

We did a vaguely scientific test on a 1 foot block of claggy soil carved out of a stream bank and the Hollow Points did give a deeper channel with an obviously mushroomed round at the end of it. So, a deeper cone shape compared to the V-Max bubble of fragmentation. The FMJs just punched a hole.

Don't think you'd see any benefit rabbit wise, not to mention V-max are cheaper!
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Re: Shot Placement On Foxes With a .17HMR

Postby Bushdog » Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:14 am

1 in 9, thats very interesting, thanks.

Was the penetration of the FMJs noticeably further (and if so, by how much)?
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Re: Shot Placement On Foxes With a .17HMR

Postby TheFoxer » Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:30 pm

Hi guys, thanks for all the posts! Some were really helpful especially Plugg( a real avid fan of the .17HMR haha) and Buffy. Obviously a topic that causes lots of debate. Anyway looking forward to getting my new CZ 455 zeroed and run in.

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Re: Shot Placement On Foxes With a .17HMR

Postby Buffy Vampire Slayer » Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:33 pm

TheFoxer wrote:Hi guys, thanks for all the posts! Some were really helpful especially Plugg( a real avid fan of the .17HMR haha) and Buffy. Obviously a topic that causes lots of debate. Anyway looking forward to getting my new CZ 455 zeroed and run in.

Chris


the main thing is to have safe enjoyable time with your gun :thup: :thup: 8-)
i hope you`ve taken a few of the things said on this thread onboard :grin: :grin:

PS take no notice of phil (plugg) since he got his .308 there`s been no talking to him :grin: :roll: :razz:
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Re: Shot Placement On Foxes With a .17HMR

Postby 1in9 » Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:25 pm

Bushdog wrote:1 in 9, thats very interesting, thanks.

Was the penetration of the FMJs noticeably further (and if so, by how much)?


The couple we put down exited the block at a slight angle and we didn't find them, it wasn't proper pure clay of course so not a proper test. I have shot a rabbit with the FMJ and it punched a neat hole with limited expansion. Dropped via a headshot I might add.

I'd bought them for range use when I got the gun but it transpired V-max weren't in fact an issue and are much cheaper! They didn't group any better.
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Re: Shot Placement On Foxes With a .17HMR

Postby plugg » Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:16 pm

TheFoxer wrote:Hi guys, thanks for all the posts! Some were really helpful especially Plugg( a real avid fan of the .17HMR haha) and Buffy. Obviously a topic that causes lots of debate. Anyway looking forward to getting my new CZ 455 zeroed and run in.

Chris


Buffy Vampire Slayer wrote:
TheFoxer wrote:Hi guys, thanks for all the posts! Some were really helpful especially Plugg( a real avid fan of the .17HMR haha) and Buffy. Obviously a topic that causes lots of debate. Anyway looking forward to getting my new CZ 455 zeroed and run in.

Chris


the main thing is to have safe enjoyable time with your gun :thup: :thup: 8-)
i hope you`ve taken a few of the things said on this thread onboard :grin: :grin:

PS take no notice of phil (plugg) since he got his .308 there`s been no talking to him :grin: :roll: :razz:


I have no problem with HMR's when they are used to shoot the quarry they are suited to shoot...Rabbits and other ground sitting quarry. Thats it for me Im afraid.

Now...308... ;) :grin:
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Re: Shot Placement On Foxes With a .17HMR

Postby Bushdog » Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:30 am

1in9 wrote:The couple we put down exited the block at a slight angle and we didn't find them, it wasn't proper pure clay of course so not a proper test. I have shot a rabbit with the FMJ and it punched a neat hole with limited expansion. Dropped via a headshot I might add.

I'd bought them for range use when I got the gun but it transpired V-max weren't in fact an issue and are much cheaper! They didn't group any better.


That's interesting, too. For some reason D & C have specifically excluded me from using my .17HMR for target shooting. Both my .22RFs are conditioned for field and target shooting on ranges, as are my .308s and my .375. But apparently, that deadly little 17 HMR is too lethal to use on a range!?!

I'm very fond of my .17HMR, but agree with all who have commented on its limitation to smaller animals (as it is currently loaded). I have also experienced occasional inconsistent terminal performance, as others have noted, and I recall discussing exactly this issue with a mate in Oz, who had one long before I did.

I believe it could be loaded with a slightly heavier, more solidly constructed soft-point, and actually be an effective close-range fox rifle (say to 120m or so). I doubt there will ever be the commercial stimulus to get such a load in production, though. I'd also agree with anyone who told me there were more effective calibres (e.g. .22 Hornet, as someone has pointed out).
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Re: Shot Placement On Foxes With a .17HMR

Postby 247sniper » Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:44 am

Bushdog wrote:
1in9 wrote: I'd also agree with anyone who told me there were more effective calibres (e.g. .22 Hornet, as someone has pointed out).



Yes :grin:

Especially when reloaded, 35 grain V-max @ 3080ftps = 740 ftlb, the 40 grain V-max (The best bullet in the Hornet IMO) 3018ftps = 810ftlb. and with the 50 grain SPSX bullet loaded to 2990ftps = 993 ftlb :shock: This is mild .222 performance with only 13.6 grains of powder! And all testeed and proven in my own rifle.

As an example the last 50 grain load has the same amount of energy at 400 yards as any HMR would have at just the muzzle.

Much better option for the OP needs, far greater performance, tonnes more energy and cheap to reload for, probably the cheapest rifle in fact. :thup:
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Re: Shot Placement On Foxes With a .17HMR

Postby 1in9 » Sat Dec 08, 2012 2:04 pm

Bushdog wrote:
That's interesting, too. For some reason D & C have specifically excluded me from using my .17HMR for target shooting. Both my .22RFs are conditioned for field and target shooting on ranges, as are my .308s and my .375. But apparently, that deadly little 17 HMR is too lethal to use on a range!?!

I'm very fond of my .17HMR, but agree with all who have commented on its limitation to smaller animals (as it is currently loaded). I have also experienced occasional inconsistent terminal performance, as others have noted, and I recall discussing exactly this issue with a mate in Oz, who had one long before I did.

I believe it could be loaded with a slightly heavier, more solidly constructed soft-point, and actually be an effective close-range fox rifle (say to 120m or so). I doubt there will ever be the commercial stimulus to get such a load in production, though. I'd also agree with anyone who told me there were more effective calibres (e.g. .22 Hornet, as someone has pointed out).


That's silly. Some ranges have bullet restrictions on expanding heads or velocity restrictions but not many.

Admittedly there are few competitions with HMR but it would be easy for your club to run an informal one once a year and hey presto a good reason to have one for target.

My club does just this, lots of club comps covering all sorts of weird and wonderful milsurp and category needs.

You may want to clarify whether you can at least informally zero on a range, if not engaging in comps. Or if whether by forbidding you to harm paper they imply you should be staking out live rabbits to test with instead ;)
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Re: Shot Placement On Foxes With a .17HMR

Postby Bushdog » Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:05 am

1 in 9 - Its silly, but I don't much care.
I wouldn't want to use the 17HMR on range for competitions - it's too expensive and our club's RF comps restrict them to .22 LR. I have the normal zeroing condition, so can test it, and I have a 100m safe range with a bench set up in my woods, so don't need to take it to a range to zero. If it had been a restriction on me, I would have queried it - I have questioned other random conditions and found the licensing department very accomodating in the past.

247 Sniper - I'm afraid our views on velocity differ, probably due to the type of ground we shoot over. Don't misunderstand - I am not doubting that you are able to get those velocities, quite safely, from the Hornet. Nor do I think you're wrong, necessarily.
Factory-type velocities of 2500-2600 for 45gn bullets would float my boat a lot more than trying to turn it into a .223. I've read tests which suggest many factory brands don't make much more than 2000fps with 45gn bullets.
I'm afraid I am not into super-fast bullets that blow up -I prefer to leave 2 holes in everything (1 in, 1 out) and if I balls up, I've usually got a good blood trail to follow.
Not convinced a 35gn VMax at > 3000 would give me that. I'm probably just being old-school. :hmm:
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Re: Shot Placement On Foxes With a .17HMR

Postby caspertguk » Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:16 am

Agree with most everyone here, the .17hmr can kill a fox however it is not the best round to use! I have shot fox's with my .17 but at no more than 100 yards on a calm night and never had a runner from a chest shot. The point is if all you have is the .17 at the time and the shot is justified and you can do it cleanly then i suppose needs must. But if your going out specificly for mr fox then carry a better calibre. If i am out in the truck i tend to take the .243 with me as well but i do appreciate you can't take two guns on foot very easily.

If your confident your gun will kill it and you have the skill needed................They do authorise .17hmr here in the westcountry for fox!
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Re: Shot Placement On Foxes With a .17HMR

Postby 247sniper » Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:23 am

Bushdog wrote:1 in 9 - Its silly, but I don't much care.
I wouldn't want to use the 17HMR on range for competitions - it's too expensive and our club's RF comps restrict them to .22 LR. I have the normal zeroing condition, so can test it, and I have a 100m safe range with a bench set up in my woods, so don't need to take it to a range to zero. If it had been a restriction on me, I would have queried it - I have questioned other random conditions and found the licensing department very accomodating in the past.

247 Sniper - I'm afraid our views on velocity differ, probably due to the type of ground we shoot over. Don't misunderstand - I am not doubting that you are able to get those velocities, quite safely, from the Hornet. Nor do I think you're wrong, necessarily.
Factory-type velocities of 2500-2600 for 45gn bullets would float my boat a lot more than trying to turn it into a .223. I've read tests which suggest many factory brands don't make much more than 2000fps with 45gn bullets.
I'm afraid I am not into super-fast bullets that blow up -I prefer to leave 2 holes in everything (1 in, 1 out) and if I balls up, I've usually got a good blood trail to follow.
Not convinced a 35gn VMax at > 3000 would give me that. I'm probably just being old-school. :hmm:


My .22 Hornet shooting 46 grain Winchester hollow point (Factory ammo) with a stated on the box velocity of 2690ftps only in real life testing produced 2550ftps. Factory Hornady 35 grain V-Max on the box advertise 3100 ftps, so im not sure what you have been reading with reference to 2000ftps. Some of the older reloading manuals with old powders list very low velocities.

I wasnt trying to turn my .22 Hornet into a .223 or the likes, I was just doing some load development and noticed the harder I pushed the rounds the better they would group.

FYI with 13.6 grains (Full Case) of lill-gun powder, and any bullet in the .22 hornet its nowhere near max chamber pressure, thats the beauty of that powder, high velocity with low chamber pressures, if i could fit 14 grains in then i probably would if the accuracy was there. My point to all of this is its a great performer, with a very little powder, and cost to reload it.
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