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WHo can make an accurate LBP

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WHo can make an accurate LBP

Postby jack1 » Sat Jun 17, 2017 3:09 pm

HI

K22, GSG, all very good the K22 maybe better but both unmitigated disasters when it comes to accuracy using open sights.
Perhaps I'm asking for what now is an impossibility. A.22 pistol (LPP) with real and fully adjustable rear sights that will give a below .5 of an inch group at 25 meters. Yes I can hear the response used to be but not now.

Is that right?

Thanks

Jack :shotgun:
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Re: WHo can make an accurate LBP

Postby Keef » Sat Jun 17, 2017 3:55 pm

You want a .5" group from open sights when the sight radius is only about 6".

Using metric figures, with a sight radius of 150mm, if you move the foresight by 0.25mm at 25m that equals a movement of 41mm on the target.

If you want a 12.7mm group at 25m then you are going to need to hold the foresight in the backsight notch to an accuracy of 0.04mm either side of your aiming mark and that's without any error from gun or ammunition.

Ten metre Olympic air pistol is shot at a ten ring that is 11.5mm across. Equating that to 25m gives an expectation of 28.75mm circular error to get in the ten ring with a recoiless air pistol.

50m Free pistol uses a 50mm ten ring equating to 25mm at 25m. That's using a single shot .22 pistol purely designed for that individual shooter.

Wanting a semi auto pistol that will shoot 12.7mm groups is asking a bit too much.
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Re: WHo can make an accurate LBP

Postby jack1 » Sat Jun 17, 2017 4:09 pm

HI

I have been doing this precision shooting thing for a while so I like to think I know what I'm talking about but I'm always ready to listen to qualified that is qualified opinion


But thanks anyway
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Re: WHo can make an accurate LBP

Postby Shootist » Sat Jun 17, 2017 4:56 pm

:die:
If you don't have to give up your car because other people commit crimes in their cars, why should I have to give up my firearms because other people commit crimes with their firearms?
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Re: WHo can make an accurate LBP

Postby Keef » Sat Jun 17, 2017 5:22 pm

jack1 wrote:HI

I have been doing this precision shooting thing for a while so I like to think I know what I'm talking about but I'm always ready to listen to qualified that is qualified opinion


But thanks anyway


If you are capable of shooting .5" groups at 25m with a .22 semi auto might I suggest that you ask for a trial for the British Olympic Team?
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Re: WHo can make an accurate LBP

Postby flintlok » Sat Jun 17, 2017 5:34 pm

I can't see 0.5 inches objects at 25 yards with these old tired eyes. I was capable of shoot a day glow colored thumb tack at 25 yards at one time with an US Model 1863 Rifled Musket and Mine balls. Those days are long gone.
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Re: WHo can make an accurate LBP

Postby Shootist » Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:16 pm

With a GSG 1911 LBP I can get a one hole group at 25 yards. OK, it takes about 2,000 rounds and the hole is about a foot across, but it's definitely a one hole group.
If you don't have to give up your car because other people commit crimes in their cars, why should I have to give up my firearms because other people commit crimes with their firearms?
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Re: WHo can make an accurate LBP

Postby Shootist » Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:17 pm

Keef wrote:If you are capable of shooting .5" groups at 25m with a .22 semi auto might I suggest that you ask for a trial for the British Olympic Team?


A trial would end in a verdict of not guilty by reason of insanity.
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Re: WHo can make an accurate LBP

Postby jack1 » Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:54 pm

Don't know where you get your experience rom but mine was precision and action shooting with 'real' handguns up to 1997 and yes such groups were not uncommon with 38 special target loads. In some cases up to 50 metres albeit rested at a barricade in the case of PPC

Really don't need the idiot sarcasm but then perhaps you really are not very good or at least not as good as those of us who competed in Europe, around BB and the USA in those days in PPC and derivatives. PPC is' Police Pistol Combat' (1500 and the like)

Always ready to listen to qualified opinion

Have a good weekend
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Re: WHo can make an accurate LBP

Postby Shootist » Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:15 pm

We're not worth, we're not worthy.

But consider. You purport to be a world class shot with a pistol, having travelled internationally to enjoy your sport. You speak as if you have significant knowledge of pistols, their use and construction. And here you are, on a forum primarily serving a country where pistols are banned, blaming the firearm you can't shoot with. You criticise the knowledge of others without having first properly introduced yourself and declaring your superior abilities. You have all the indicators of a Walt, and the style of a bit of a knob. Perhaps you might like to throw a six and start again.
If you don't have to give up your car because other people commit crimes in their cars, why should I have to give up my firearms because other people commit crimes with their firearms?
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Re: WHo can make an accurate LBP

Postby Coldfinger » Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:44 am

jack1 wrote:Don't know where you get your experience rom but mine was precision and action shooting with 'real' handguns up to 1997 and yes such groups were not uncommon with 38 special target loads. In some cases up to 50 metres albeit rested at a barricade in the case of PPC......

......but then perhaps you really are not very good or at least not as good as those of us who competed in Europe, around BB and the USA in those days in PPC and derivatives. PPC is' Police Pistol Combat' (1500 and the like)

Always ready to listen to qualified opinion

Have a good weekend


OK, I've competed and officiated at Practical Pistol comps at club, regional, interclub and European level. I was a UKPSA Range Master for many years and am still a UKPSA member.

I've shot PPC, PP1, PP2, Practical Shotgun etc etc.

I've shot .22 precision pistol in regional and national competitions and a northern area championship 1st place trophy is in my bedroom (since they haven't shot that competition since Hungerford I suppose I'm still reigning champ :grin: ).

I've shot precision pistol, full and small bore, since 1976.

I'd never ever consider a semi-auto pistol to be anything as accurate as a handgun with target grips, hammer, trigger and sights. Any gun with which the sights and barrel are not fully and permanently fixed & aligned will never be as accurate as you want. The bushings introduce inaccuracy, there has to be some play or the slide would not function.

I fully agree with Keef.

jack1 wrote:Perhaps I'm asking for what now is an impossibility.


I believe you are so why kick up such a fuss when people tell you that they hold the same opinion?
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Re: WHo can make an accurate LBP

Postby Keef » Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:42 am

jack1 wrote:Always ready to listen to qualified opinion


Apparently you are not.

The size of the "Ten ring" on targets for various competitions has changed over the years. When competitors start to consistently get maximum scores whether by virtue of the skill level or the improved quality of the firearms being used the size of the scoring rings has been reduced or an extra scoring element put in. This gives rise to scores of 10.9 in pistol shooting and the "X" Ring in gallery rifle.

The sizes of the scoring rings that I quoted in my initial reply reflect the ability of the top class shooters and their firearms. If .5" groups were the norm then the size of the "Ten ring" would reflect this but they do not.

The NSRA ten bull smallbore target has a ten ring that is approx 12mm across. You are complaining that you cannot get a semi auto pistol that will group to the same level as a long barrel single shot target rifle.

As said before, your expectations are too high.
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Re: WHo can make an accurate LBP

Postby Bushdog » Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:04 am

While not exactly comparing "apples to apples" Wilson Combat will guarantee 1" accuracy from their top-line 1911s. A GSG 1911 does have a fixed (well, fixed by a screw) barrel, and the length may be a slight assistance albeit as has previously been pointed out, the sight radius is still the same as on a standard 1911. Mine shoots about a 2" group, which is about all I could ever get out of my centrefire pistols back in the day (and about the same as the STI Spartan 9mm I still regularly use in IDPA comps in the USA). I accept that some precision revolvers were made for Police Pistol shooting which were extremely accurate, but they were revolvers and did not have reciprocating barrels. Whether they were capable of 0.5" I have no idea.
The point about bullseye sizes is very relevant - I think the x-ring on a PP1 (bad guy in sunglasses) was around 1.5-2" which is what the guns were made to shoot into. I think the pinnacle in centrefire auto pistol are the US Bullseye 1911s which I understand do shoot sub 1" groups. I don't suppose there is anyone in the UK with the experience to build such guns - apart from anything else, the base .22 rf guns which are available here may not be of sufficient quality to get that level of accuracy out of. I assume some of the dedicated target .22 pistols (such as those made for rapid fire competition) would be sufficiently accurate to meet Jack1's criteria, but they are not available in LBP format as far as I know.
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Re: WHo can make an accurate LBP

Postby Deallad » Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:57 pm

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