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Talk me into the .204

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Talk me into the .204

Postby Blue2 » Tue May 13, 2008 8:42 am

Confession time.

At present I shoot a .17 Rem and a 243.
Both are excellent guns, but the 243, I can't get on with. I am not really interested in Deer and If I were, then the 243 would probably be swapped for another calibre anyway. The 243 was really a long range varmint design for me.
The .17 I use primarily for the long range crow/bunny and fox.
The 243 is a W'by MKV with a new PAC-NOR 1-8 twist (I know :oops: ) and shoots very well,, although not by me. Therefore I just use the .17 whilst the 243 is now up for sale as I can't group it that well at all. I believe this is down to the recoil. I'm not a little chap, but I can't tame the beast. Off a bench is okay, but in the field is a waste of time for me.

Therefore after a chat with Guesty last night over three warm rifles, he suggest I ask on here about the 204 Ruger.
I intend to get a Sako 85 either Varmint or Sporter.
So what do I do.
This will be for up to 400 yard foxing.
22-250 (I shoot the AI version regularly, but it is on a RFD ticket, not mine and I can cope with the recoil)
223
.204
I'm definitely not going down the custome route, so it can't be anything other than a .204 Ruger.
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Re: Talk me into the .204

Postby hungryrob » Tue May 13, 2008 8:44 am

Cue three pages worth of geekery from Kev..... :lol:
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Re: Talk me into the .204

Postby Foxy » Tue May 13, 2008 9:14 am

Have you thought about fitting a sound supressor as this will reduce recoil by approximatley 40%
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Re: Talk me into the .204

Postby Blue2 » Tue May 13, 2008 9:24 am

Foxy wrote:Have you thought about fitting a sound supressor as this will reduce recoil by approximatley 40%
Foxy


Mod already on the gun.
The gun is quite light considering it has a Ruger Varmint profile barrel.
The 243 is going regardless as I just can't get on with it.
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Re: Talk me into the .204

Postby Guesty » Tue May 13, 2008 9:42 am

Ballistically speaking (as always), the best of the small calibres for your purpose is the 22-250.
The next best is 204Ruger, then 17Rem and finally 223Rem in that order. The latter three having considerably less oomph and recoil.
According to Quickload when using typical best loads (similar pressures and barrel lengths) for each, the difference between the best performing (22-250) and worst (223Rem) in drop and 10mph wind deflection at 400 yards is around 6" and 3" respectively.
I think these improvements are def. worth having if buying from scratch. However, I'm not convinced it might be actually worth selling one to buy another when factoring in the PITA factor. If I was you, I'd stick with the 17Rem until it's worn out, then replacing it with 22-250 if power is everything, or 204Ruger for nearly the same ballistics for less heat and light. I'm going to do the latter when my 223 is getting tired.
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Re: Talk me into the .204

Postby Beer Hunter » Tue May 13, 2008 10:02 am

The .204 is definitely up to 400 yards and more. I was shooting bunnies at over 400 yards on Saturday night with my cheap and nasty CZ Varmint :)

When talking long range shooting, it's all down to BC and MV and ballistically the .204 is way, way ahead of any .17 or .22 centerfire - due to the high muzzle velocities and the bullets particularly high BC.
If you read around, you will find folk telling you that its not possible to reload to reach the factories quoted velocities. Total rubbish. I've gone to over 4300 fps with the 32 grain heads and nearly 4000 with the 39 grainers - no pressure signs at all and I've not finished the load development yet :)
However, I am using a 25.5" barrel.

As a comparison of the ballistics of various calibres with the same weight of bullet, have a look here.

So, if I were looking for a long range bunny / fox rifle than I'd choose the .204 without hesitation. After looking deeply into the options, this is exactly what I did.
However, in your case, if you are going to go without the .243 then a .22 may make sense if you want to shoot the small deer species (and Scottish Roe) at a later date.

Kev.
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Re: Talk me into the .204

Postby Beer Hunter » Tue May 13, 2008 10:06 am

Guesty wrote:...The latter three having considerably less oomph and recoil...

When talking about the comparison with the .204, I strongly disagree with the first part of that statement.
Although the .22-250 has more "oomph" at the muzzle, your quarry rarely sits there. Downrange, the .204 retains much more energy. If you click the link in my post above, you will see that the .204 has more energy after 130 yards.

Kev.
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Re: Talk me into the .204

Postby Guesty » Tue May 13, 2008 10:43 am

Beer Hunter wrote:
Guesty wrote:...The latter three having considerably less oomph and recoil...

When talking about the comparison with the .204, I strongly disagree with the first part of that statement.
Although the .22-250 has more "oomph" at the muzzle, your quarry rarely sits there. Downrange, the .204 retains much more energy. If you click the link in my post above, you will see that the .204 has more energy after 130 yards.

Kev.


Hi Kev. I agree that your comparison shows that the 204Ruger easily beats 22CFs when all using 40gn heads, but this is hardly surprising as a 40gn .20" is vastly more ballistically efficient than a 40gn .22". In fact, you need to get up to around 55+gn in .22 to get close.
I stated 'typical best loads' as surely no-one's daft enough to use 40's in a 22-250? :hmm:
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Re: Talk me into the .204

Postby Beer Hunter » Tue May 13, 2008 11:01 am

Give me any load and MV and I'll chuck up the graphs.

Kev.
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Re: Talk me into the .204

Postby Guesty » Tue May 13, 2008 11:18 am

Beer Hunter wrote:Give me any load and MV and I'll chuck up the graphs.

Kev.


I'm off out right now to blast some critters, but when I get the chance I'll send you the info I set up with Quickload for each of the above calibers.
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Re: Talk me into the .204

Postby Beer Hunter » Tue May 13, 2008 1:47 pm

I'll give the .22-250 the very best chance I can :)

As we are only looking at factory guns in this thread, the .22-250 is available in twist rates of 1-14 and 1-12. Therefore using the Greenhill Formula for high speed bullets (max bullet length = 180 ÷ (twist ÷ bullet diameter²) gives a maximum usable bullet length of 0.753".
Looking up the hunting bullet tables for all .224 bullets within this size we find the 60 grain Hornady SP (part #2270) has the best BC of 0.264.
Looking up all the reloading guides I can find, the best MV available for this bullet from a .22-250 is 3560 fps.

Now if we compare that against a 39 grain Sierra .204 round loaded (I'll use my own load of 3,979 fps) - these are the graphs:
(you will need to click to view them)
image001.gif


image003.gif


image004.gif


image002.gif


As you can see, the .204 outperforms the .22-250. The only area with these loads in which the .22-250 is better is energy - however all the way out to 500 yards both are more than capable of taking any "varmint" sized quarry.

Kev.
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Re: Talk me into the .204

Postby Guesty » Tue May 13, 2008 6:25 pm

Again, I see your load whups the 22-250, but I'm not really surprised as it must be running at very high pressure indeed. I have only compared similar pressure loads, and can't account for individual rifles that allow very high pressure reloads.
Still, I don't know why I'm arguing the case for 22-250, as I'm after a 204 myself. I must be going mad! :shock:
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Re: Talk me into the .204

Postby Beer Hunter » Tue May 13, 2008 7:24 pm

Guesty wrote:Again, I see your load whups the 22-250, but I'm not really surprised as it must be running at very high pressure indeed. I have only compared similar pressure loads, and can't account for individual rifles that allow very high pressure reloads.
Still, I don't know why I'm arguing the case for 22-250, as I'm after a 204 myself. I must be going mad! :shock:

The load I'm using is 30.3 grain of BL-C(2). According to Hornady's own data, this should be 55,600 psi with their shorter length of load. I expect mine to be closer to 52,000 psi with the longer loading and higher capacity (fireformed) cases. This is about 11.5% under the SAAMI maximum.
The load shows no pressure signs at all.

The .22-250 load given above runs at an indicated 61,300 psi versus a SAAMI max of 65,000 psi - only 5.7% under max.
I really am trying to give the .22-250 more than a fair shout! :)

I thought long and hard about the .22-250 (and swift) as it would have been good to have an all in one rifle to take Roe too. However, after using one with the local gamie, it was obviously too much for Bunnies - big noise, relatively big recoil, big powder consumption and no gain in performance.

With the .204, you can see the target impact even through a 24x scope and it moderates well too.

I honestly believe its the best small calibre, vermin and fox rifle there is :)

Kev.
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Re: Talk me into the .204

Postby RichardH » Tue May 13, 2008 9:59 pm

Hang on a sec Kev.........

You're using the very heaviest bullets available for a .20, you've also got a very long barrel

Assume if you will I have a 1/9 26" .22-250 (and I really might soon :lol: )

Now put a Sierra 69 in it and run a compressed load (we'll assume I've got fire formed cases too)

I think that'll knock your .20 into a cocked hat and still allow me to shoot deer?

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Re: Talk me into the .204

Postby hungryrob » Tue May 13, 2008 10:08 pm

RichardH wrote:
I think that'll knock your .20 into a cocked hat and still allow me to shoot deer?


Here we go.... first board popcorn moment coming right up :lol:
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