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Now here's an interesting bullet

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Now here's an interesting bullet

Postby Shootist » Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:47 pm

http://www.hornady.com/store/30-Cal-.308-100-gr-Short-Jacket/

30 Cal .308 100 gr Short Jacket
Image

This bullet is packaged as a varmint round and extols it's 'explosive expansion'.

Questions. (I know the answers, just want some views)

1. Is this a S.5 round?

2. Can it be used to shoot deer, assuming MV requirements are met?
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Re: Now here's an interesting bullet

Postby Viperteks » Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:58 pm

IMHO

Yes and Yes

That last line in the description - explosive expansion - thus it's designed to expand so I would definitely say section 5.

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Re: Now here's an interesting bullet

Postby Buffy Vampire Slayer » Tue Oct 28, 2014 7:23 pm

2. Can it be used to shoot deer, assuming MV requirements are met?

I can`t see why not as long as long as the MV/ME requirements are met for the larger species.
does it give a MV for the round @ 100 grns :?

EDIT---- just been on hornadys` website and no it doesn`t give MV or ME,and it must have been out quite a while as it`s not listed as a new product :!:
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Re: Now here's an interesting bullet

Postby leadpig » Tue Oct 28, 2014 8:40 pm

the bc is dreadful :shock:
the 110g v-max nearly doubles it :Facepalm:
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Re: Now here's an interesting bullet

Postby Shootist » Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:42 am

OK, firstly, it's not a S.5 bullet. It is not designed or adapted to expand on impact, it just that it happens that it does, because it's made of lead and has a copper lining at the rear half to help cope with the rifling. Don't forget that the Yanks don't have this S.5 nonsense. The same goes for A-Max which is not S.5 and V-Max which is. Both have the plastic 'ballistic tip' made from the same material. BUT, the marketing policy is that the 'A' is for Accuracy, the 'V' is for Varmint. V-Max were designed to expand on impact. A-Max was designed for accuracy by moving the centre of gravity slightly to the rear. By happy coincidence the bullets are almost identical. In the USA A-Max are a popular round for deer.

So, the bullet in the OP (And A-Max if you like), if it's not a S.5 round, can it be used to shoot deer in England and Wales? :)
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Re: Now here's an interesting bullet

Postby Viperteks » Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:18 am

Totally agree on A-Max and V-Max, they are well documented.

Not sure if i agree on this one though, if it states that it has 'explosive expansion' even at low velocities, then I and i guess most Police forces would definitely say it's S5. THEIR argument being it says so so it must have been designed so...... :hmm: :hmm: :hmm: :hmm: :hmm:

Have you asked the cops their opinion on it (even if they don't know what they are talking about most of the time).

The problem is there is no defacto test or specification for expanding bullets in the UK - we sort of rely on the manufacturers to tell us what the the bullet does, and as we in the UK are about the only place on the planet who segregates bullet heads it is a PITA.

Regardless of what yo and I think the bullet is - your average Cop would look at that factory description and 'insist' it is S5 on that alone - burden of proof being on you to prove otherwise. I will also state that in this instance and based on that wording I wouldn't take that risk. So unless I had S5 on my ticket - I wouldn't touch it, luckily I do have S5 - but still wouldn't touch it for other reasons.

You are about the most legally clued up guy on here Steve :thup: , what would you say to the cops to say it ISN'T S5 - against the Factory description.

The Factory wording on A/V-Max, allows us in my opinion to use them more easily, as it does with many other Hollowpoint 'Target' rounds ;) ;) ;) ;)

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Re: Now here's an interesting bullet

Postby Deallad » Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:30 am

Having shot Charlie with both A-max and V-max I can assure you Charlie did not know the difference and you can buy A-max online.

When a fox gets hit by either bullet there is expansion with an average range of 150 yards from my 22-250rem.

working out at a strike of over 2,700fps there is no chance of surviving with a reasonable shot.

How about a Barnes Varmint Grenade?

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Re: Now here's an interesting bullet

Postby Shootist » Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:33 am

It is the design or adaptation that is the issue, not the fact that it happens to expand, or the marketing style. If this were not the case then every plain lead bullet would be S.5, which would somewhat bugger up all the lever action gallery rifle lads. When I owned a 45/70 it used nothing but ordinary lead bullets. There is no doubt that they would expand greatly if they hit the right parts. but they were not S.5. Likewise at the other end of the scale, the ordinary .22 rimfire round made of soft lead and will certainly expand if it hits the right part. But neither is designed to expand. Like A-Max, they will expand and are regularly used, and advertised for the purpose in the USA I believe, for hunting live quarry.

Of course, I don't doubt that some police officers, and some Firearms Licensing Officers too, somewhere would be daft enough to give it a run in the OP bullet, but then I am aware of at least one FLO who thinks that shooting solid ball from a S.2 muzzle loader is illegal :Facepalm: . But, I am confident enough that it is not S.5 that I would happily show it to any police officer who was polite enough to gain entry into Chez Shootist and point out that I had no authority to possess S.5 in that calibre. It could be quite fun.

I discovered the bullet in the OP when I was sold a box for light .308 loads (15 grains of Unique) by one of the most anally retentive firearms dealers I have ever met. There is simply no way this dealer, who has more than 20 years in the business, would have ever sold these bullets to me if they were S.5. This, of course, proves nothing, but he remarked himself on the issue, and so had clearly studied the matter.

So, can you use the OP round (assuming it's not S.5) or A-Max to shoot deer in England and Wales, if all other conditions are met? (I'm not asking about whether they are the most suitable round, just whether it's legal.) :)
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Re: Now here's an interesting bullet

Postby Shootist » Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:50 am

Deallad wrote:Having shot Charlie with both A-max and V-max I can assure you Charlie did not know the difference and you can buy A-max online.

When a fox gets hit by either bullet there is expansion with an average range of 150 yards from my 22-250rem.

working out at a strike of over 2,700fps there is no chance of surviving with a reasonable shot.

How about a Barnes Varmint Grenade?

Mike


While I agree with you in the practical result, I'm afraid that this is another of my exercises in law, primarily for my own benefit in buttoning down interesting (to me) aspects of shooting law, and hopefully to raise awareness among shooters. In other forums I have had people suggest that shooting fox with A-Max would be illegal as they are not S.5, a statement I would consider to be wrong.

A Barnes Varmint Grenade is, to the best of my knowledge, entirely S.5.
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Re: Now here's an interesting bullet

Postby Keef » Wed Oct 29, 2014 11:28 am

Whilst I have not hunted deer, from memory the law on ammunition for deer states that it must expand. It doesn't say it must be S5 and designed to expand, just that it will expand.

From memory again I believe the argument (yours) is that a solid lead bullet will expand so is legal for use on deer even though it would not be S5. On this basis the OP bullet would be deer legal as it will expand, though not S5.

This was brought up over on the "other" board and if memory serves (again!) it generated a lot of comment. (Maybe from Ackley? :) :) )
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Re: Now here's an interesting bullet

Postby Shootist » Wed Oct 29, 2014 11:33 am

Deer Act 1991

Prohibited firearms and ammunition

Any bullet for use in a rifle other than a soft-nosed or hollow-nosed bullet.
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