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Quickload

Ammunition reloading for centerfire or shotgun
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Quickload

Postby Savvy Jack » Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:23 pm

Been playing with QL.....am I on the right track?

Alliants 2005 load data.
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QL's default data for the Hornady 240gr SWC HP 23gr, not 23.5
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Adjusted burn rate to replicate actual velocity, 23gr not 23.5
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Adjusted burn rate and H2O to replicate my actual findings/results. Just to be clear, the H2O of 41.20 is what I get with Starline and Winchester brass. I get 42.40 with Remington brass.
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Re: Quickload

Postby Shootist » Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:03 pm

I can't say for your measures and calculations, but the calls I have made on Quickload have been sufficient to get me on the target every time. Not exact maybe but pretty good. MV checked with chronograph and within about 70 fps.
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Re: Quickload

Postby Savvy Jack » Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:24 pm

Shootist wrote:I can't say for your measures and calculations, but the calls I have made on Quickload have been sufficient to get me on the target every time. Not exact maybe but pretty good. MV checked with chronograph and within about 70 fps.


Thanks...

Once again..........published CUP and proposed PSI but it looks very promising and gives me a sense of comfort. I have shot 25gr with great results but didnt chrono those shots. Can't wait to do so next range trip.
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Re: Quickload

Postby Savvy Jack » Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:57 pm

I don't seem to be getting much feedback. I came to this forum through the link from Quckload. Figured there would be some folks to teach me some. I am working on my own here and this could be dangerous for that reason alone...lol

44-40
Marlin 1894CB 24" barrel
Reloder 7, 25grs, (near case capacity...can hear powder rattle)
QL- powder fill 98.9%
Remington brass volume measured H20 42.400......(40.000 shows compressed load...not accurate)
Avg case length 1.295 (RP brass has thicker rim so case length can differ from Win or Starline to equal same volume.)
CCI 300 primers
Georgia Arms 240gr SWC (cycles fine) (NOT IN QL)
Bullet length .703 avg
AOL 1.609 avg
seat depth .384
12,114 PSI @ 1,275fps my actual velocity if burn rate modified to .6072

Can someone that knows whats going check this for me? Sounds too good to be true.

7/8" groups @50 yards

I'll post photos in a minute.


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Last edited by Savvy Jack on Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Quickload

Postby Shootist » Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:04 am

Why the emphasis on Quickload? It is, when all is said and done, a guide and not a reloading manual.

I would be more interested in questions like

Are there any signs of over pressure on the case or felt in the action (stiff to open, reluctant to extract)?

Comparison with factory loads

Accuracy.

Someone I know shoots a .357 Marlin lever at 300 yard competitions. I asked him his load for that distance and he declined to give details but did say "It's on the limit. It'll open the lever for you."
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Re: Quickload

Postby Savvy Jack » Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:33 am

SWEET....feedback!!!!!

1. No signs whatsoever....no flat primers, no bulged case bases, smooth operations...(same loads fall out of my 44 mag frame revolver) Been shooting these loads for years, just now comparing with technology cause I get bored during the day.

2. There are no 240gr factory loads cept for some 2005 Alliant data no longer published......I think I posted that in my original post.

HOWEVER, in 1904......22,000 psi 200gr factory loads were manufactured called 44-40 "High Velocity" loads producing up to almost 1,600fps. I have already reproduced these loads with pleasured results.

3. I don't doubt the loads, already proven for years in my rifles and certain revolvers......just curious how QL reflects them.

Shootist wrote:Why the emphasis on Quickload? It is, when all is said and done, a guide and not a reloading manual.

I would be more interested in questions like

Are there any signs of over pressure on the case or felt in the action (stiff to open, reluctant to extract)?

Comparison with factory loads

Accuracy.

Someone I know shoots a .357 Marlin lever at 300 yard competitions. I asked him his load for that distance and he declined to give details but did say "It's on the limit. It'll open the lever for you."
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Re: Quickload

Postby Savvy Jack » Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:40 am

just noticed the icons in my first post do not seem to work. Same data is on Lee's 44-40 die set sheets

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Re: Quickload

Postby Savvy Jack » Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:37 pm

I was not aware SAAMI updated their information in 2015. Great information http://saami.org/specifications_and_...-SAAMI_CFR.pdf

Interestingly enough, the 44-40 is listed under rifle data, the way it should be.
Pages 21, 33, 144, 173, 340, 356 and 360 have some very valuable information. In particular, page 21 shows the CUP standard and page 33 shows the PSI standard for that test batch. We all know there is no magic formula/correlation between CUP and PSI but this certainly gives us a good heads up relation between the two. Also noted is that looking at the 44-40, 45 Colt and 44 Magnum information, CUP is higher than PSI.

(Oh and page 340 shows the test barrel measurments)

For example: SAAMI Max
45 Colt - 14,000 PSI/15,900 CUP
44 Mag - 36,000 PSI/43,500 CUP
44 Win - 11,000 PSI/ 13,000 CUP

What we still don't know. How accurate are the old results and how accurate is the 1904 published 22,000 PSI High Velocity loads for the 44-40.

Food for thought!!
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Re: Quickload

Postby Savvy Jack » Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:47 pm

Scratching my head. Since my Marlin uses a 44 magnum barrel (.429) rather than a 44-40 barrel (.428), I had to change the cross-sectional bore in the cartridge data. I also had to change the max PSI to 11,000 PSI, to reflect the 2015 SAAMI specs, rather than use QLs 15,xxx PSI. Leaving the H2O at default for an error buffer. In one particular load it changes the PSI from xx,437 to xx,999. I am happy with that.

hmmmmmm :luck: :luck: :luck:
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Re: Quickload

Postby flintlok » Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:22 pm

I'm a little confused. I shoot a Winchester Model 1866 in 44-40 and a Winchester 1892 in 44 Magnum. In both guns the overall cartridge me length is limited to bullets of the length found with 200 grain truncated round nose. The 240 grain Kieth style bullets are too long for the action and will jamb out of the magazine tube. Is the Marlin action long enough to accommodate the longer bullets? Also the earlier Lyman manual lists loads for 44-40 rifle loads. I have this information at home but not with me. If you want magnum performance you should really get a magnum rifle. That's what I did. My loading is different as I'm using wax wads and paper card combination with a 200 grain relatively soft lead load with a powder charge of 16 grains of 2400. The load is tantamount to a very hot 44 Special of the type Kieth would play with when he developed the 44 magnum load. I believe he used 17 grains or so of 2400.
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Re: Quickload

Postby Savvy Jack » Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:28 pm

Thanks for the feedback. Apparently I am not being clear with my intentions.

No, I don't want a 44 magnum, never have never will. No, I never said I am trying to get magnum performance....never have, never will. Don't read anything into my posts that I don't come right out and say.

I am looking for nothing more than to replicate original pre-WWII ballistics using case capacity loads. Do I need to post all my history in each and every post?

Here is a little insert.....(Paraphrasing)

Beginning back in 1903, and for about the next 40 years, higher velocity .44-40 cartridges were offered for both the '94 Marlin and '92 Winchester. Catalog velocity was almost 1,600 f.p.s. with a 200 gr. jacketed bullet. Pressure was reported to be around 22,000 p.s.i. and therefore were not safe to be used in the '73 Winchester.

Working with the '94 Marlin Cowboy Ltd. (24") I have been replicating those vintage factory offerings with so called pressures in the 17k to 23k vicinity. Yes, the so called chronograph/pre-high pressure sign methods are used.

Other people have used the following;

R-P cases, here are the loads I have tried:
20 / 2400 / 1,670 f.p.s.
21 / 4759 / 1,619 f.p.s. (Capacity load)
21 / H4227 / 1,610 f.p.s.
25 / XMP5744 / 1,630 f.p.s. (Capacity load)

All of these loads shot reported groups in the 1 1/2" range @ 50 yards. (no, I am not trying to shoot 500 yards or I would go get one of those new fangled rifles with little pointy bullets)
The best reported group to date, with a particular rifle, came with a slightly higher charge of H4227 under the Winchester bullet.
22 / H4227 /1,685 f.p.s. went into less than 1" for 5 shots @ 50 yards....but the powder had to be positioned to the back of the case to get that result/

My personal findings I have been posting in various forums etc with not much feedback.

So NO, I am not looking for 44 magnum performance but yes............some original High Velocity findings results in a correlation with 44 magnum low end performance.

Did I make myself clear?

Now, for the QL information.....this is the only program us poor folks can use to come anywhere close to finding pressures for our loads. Sure put garbage in get garbage out is true but its hard to learn the program and what the program has to offer without constructive feedback. I am trying very hard to enter correct information into the program.

That brings us back to the post above......for those that do not know....the 44 Winchester barrels ranged anywhere from .425 to .432 but modern manufactures usually just use .429 44 magnum/special barrels. Not a problem since I get great results with 44 special/magnum bullets and smokeless powders.

Yeap, I got great results with black powder and the Lyman 429098 bullets......case capacity loads. I have three, three ring notebooks full of 44 winchester notes, ballistics findings and ballistics gel tests I have performed myself. Not exactly a rookie but by all means still a STUDENT! Practice does not make Perfect....only PERFECT practice makes Perfect !!!

So my goal is not to make a 44 magum out of a 44 winchester but to find the perfect load for my rifle :-)

And finally, if anyone reading this does not use QL, then why reply? If you do use QL then I would certainly appreciate constructive feedback as to the program and my ignorance in learning.
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Re: Quickload

Postby Shootist » Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:02 pm

OK, I'll take the bait.

I am looking for nothing more than to replicate original pre-WWII ballistics using case capacity loads


and

So my goal is not to make a 44 magum out of a 44 winchester but to find the perfect load for my rifle :-)


Quickload is a guide. A great guide for sure and I use it regularly and feel much better informed for it. Whether I am or not is another thing altogether.

As a young man I because very absorbed with HiFi. This was in the days when it was a difficult hobby. One quote I recall from one of the many HiFi magazines (pre internet!) was to the effect that the serious hifi enthusiast would own about half a dozen test records and three LPs of music. They spent more time on the test records that with the music, and when they listened to the music, the were actually listening to the silence between the noise. It is beginning to sound like you are doing the equivalent, which can be great fun. Just a comment really.

You are clearly very well educated in the vagaries of Quickload and internal ballistics. You shoot well and often, by the sounds of it. I can't quite figure out why you are posting on this forum rather than one which is more specialised, one where you may well get answers that are more in line with your questions. Don't get me wrong, I welcome your input but you must be aware by now that there doesn't appear to be a source of info on this forum to match your knowledge. Perhaps you might spread your discussions wider. I don't doubt you have much to share.
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Re: Quickload

Postby Savvy Jack » Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:40 pm

Thanks shootist. With your reply I can try to explain myself in that area a bit better. Thanks to both of you for reaching out....

I am trying to take what I know and implement it into QL to get as close as I can to accurate pressures that QL can offer. I certainly dont know everything about the 44-40 but what I do know I have acquired from other guys that do know. Kind of like gathering info from several well knowledgeable guys and trying to put it into QL. QL's default 44-40 info is correct for the 44-40 of the past but not of the present....as far as the ".428" cartridge/bore information used with soft lead bullets of years past. You already know I suffer from trying to put what's in my head down on paper so to speak...referring to texting/typing my thoughts.

My 1894CB Marlin's barrel should use the 44 magnum measurements in QL while my original 1888 Marlin uses the original 44-40 measurements.. .426, .427, .428 of yesteryear vs .429 and .430 bores of today......still refering to cat. II strength rifles, not the weak action of the 73".

I have noticed a lot of information that I would just like to confirm is not "garbage in" as I have read in years old postings. Playing "catch-up" is not easy.

For example; QL uses the volumetric data of 40.00gr while my measurements in win, rem and starline brass run between 41.20 in win/starline to 42.40 in remington brass. All of these ever so slight inaccuracies can cause the pressures of my loads to range from 18,000psi to 23,000 psi, not to mention outside air temp.

Sometimes even if no one replies to my posts, re-reading can energize that lightbulb in my little brain. I even made a little form to help me keep my data straight when entering it into QL. So easy to make mistakes.

I have several other examples of what data is correct. QL uses 15,954 PSI as a 44-40 pmax while SAAMI 2015 data shows 11,000 PSI.....there maybe something there I am missing. All of these little things I am trying to learn in order to feed in "good info" to get out "good info" rather than "garbage".

THANKS!!!




Shootist wrote:OK, I'll take the bait.

I am looking for nothing more than to replicate original pre-WWII ballistics using case capacity loads


and

So my goal is not to make a 44 magum out of a 44 winchester but to find the perfect load for my rifle :-)


Quickload is a guide. A great guide for sure and I use it regularly and feel much better informed for it. Whether I am or not is another thing altogether.

As a young man I because very absorbed with HiFi. This was in the days when it was a difficult hobby. One quote I recall from one of the many HiFi magazines (pre internet!) was to the effect that the serious hifi enthusiast would own about half a dozen test records and three LPs of music. They spent more time on the test records that with the music, and when they listened to the music, the were actually listening to the silence between the noise. It is beginning to sound like you are doing the equivalent, which can be great fun. Just a comment really.

You are clearly very well educated in the vagaries of Quickload and internal ballistics. You shoot well and often, by the sounds of it. I can't quite figure out why you are posting on this forum rather than one which is more specialised, one where you may well get answers that are more in line with your questions. Don't get me wrong, I welcome your input but you must be aware by now that there doesn't appear to be a source of info on this forum to match your knowledge. Perhaps you might spread your discussions wider. I don't doubt you have much to share.
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Re: Quickload

Postby Savvy Jack » Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:24 am

Great conversation with Ed on the phone. Corrected the H2O, Corrected the barrel bore for my Marlin...added a "tweek" for reloder 7 for a straight walled case (even though we know it has a slight taper)....great results.

Thanks Ed!!!!
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Re: Quickload

Postby Savvy Jack » Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:12 am

65-75 yards, Marlin 1894CB, 44-40...Friday November 17th, 2017 A tad higher on the shoulder than I wanted......
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