1897 Trench Gun

[jegb]

Would one of theese be legal as a section 1 12 gauge?

[libensvolenspotens]

If you could justify the need for one yes.

Cheers,
Dave

[thibben]

Think they are a bit short in the barrel even for section 1?

Used to shoot a 97 for CAS in the US, not the trench but the commercial take down version, nice gun, can slam fire them (should you so wish ) .

Believe Norinco make a modern repro but the wood lloks like a bit fo floor board.

T

[The_Dogge]

No, the barrel is <24", so they are not section 1 legal. There are some Norinco repros about in the UK, not many, and they are all the standard version.

[flintlok]

I love the 1897's in the movie Untouchable's during the "shootout on the bridge scene". This clip in dubbed in Italian but the 1897's speak a universal language. Actually in any iteration the 1897’s are fun guns to shoot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1yW6bSk ... re=related

[boyscout1982]

Norinco Copy of Winchester 1897 will be made available at the Bisley Show on 25th March.

PM me for details and if you are interested in purchasing.
I think the dealer wants £395, new in the box. Fixed choke and 28" Barrel.

[Shootist]

No, the barrel is <24", so they are not section 1 legal. There are some Norinco repros about in the UK, not many, and they are all the standard version.

If the barrel is under 24" then they are S.1. Over 24" and mag <3 then S.2. You just have to thinkof a reason to own a short barrelled pump shotgun. I think it can be done,

[libensvolenspotens]

I have seen one used at my local range so it can be done.
I am unaware of the reason he gave for the variation though.
Probably collecting World war 1 arms.

Cheers,
Dave

[boyscout1982]

No, the barrel is <24", so they are not section 1 legal. There are some Norinco repros about in the UK, not many, and they are all the standard version.

If the barrel is under 24" then they are S.1. Over 24" and mag <3 then S.2. You just have to thinkof a reason to own a short barrelled pump shotgun. I think it can be done,

I had this debate with one of my club members and with my FEO.

FEO takes his interpretation from Section 1 of the Firearms Act as follows:

(3)This section applies to every firearm except— .
[F1(a)a shot gun within the meaning of this Act, that is to say a smooth-bore gun (not being an air gun) which— .
(i)has a barrel not less than 24 inches in length and does not have any barrel with a bore exceeding 2 inches in diameter; .
(ii)either has no magazine or has a non-detachable magazine incapable of holding more than two cartridges;

So he says this covers Section 1 for shotgun barrels SHORTER than 24". This makes me happy!

However, an experienced shooter referred me to Section 5 and the following:

[F11

(ac)any self-loading or pump-action smooth-bore gun which is not [F13an air weapon or] chambered for .22 rim-fire cartridges and either has a barrel less than 24 inches in length or F14. . . is less than 40 inches in length overall;

This makes me sad.

The two sections seem to contradict eachother (big surprise) and this fact makes me and lastly very very . Because my taxes pay the muppets that sucked these controls out of whatever PC gratifying crack pipe that was being passed around at the time.

So what do we do?? Apparently a lever action shotgun with a 12" barrel can be had on a Section 1 ticket (Pete Starley has one) for fun, but you can't get hold of a 18.5" Mossberg 590 pump for Practical Shotgun (an international sport with regular competitions).

Is it all up to the interpretation of the arresting officer....
Remember Mick Shepherd? Metropolitan Police stuffed up and still refuse to give him back his antiques evern after being ordered to by a judge. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6223750.stm

[HDAV]

It isn't contradictory you can have a single or double barrel gun shorter than 24" on sect 1 like a coach gun or shot pistol as long as it isn't a semi/pump a short lever action .410 may be a conundrum tho.

[boyscout1982]

It isn't contradictory you can have a single or double barrel gun shorter than 24" on sect 1 like a coach gun or shot pistol as long as it isn't a semi/pump a short lever action .410 may be a conundrum tho.

I see what you mean. Thanks for explaining that.

Next question is why? One is as deadly as the other and these are in place, supposedly, to limit some nutter's firepower so statistically he/she can kill less people before the authorities put a stop to it.

Or is there another reason for it. I'd would like to know what makes this http://www.chiappafirearms.com/product/2477 okay but this http://www.winchesterguns.com/products/catalog/imagepreview.asp?mid=512252 is ILLEGAL.

The lever action is 27.5" long and the pump is 38.5", making it more of a pain to conceal if a criminal wanted to use it to commit a crime.

[libensvolenspotens]

The one that I saw at the range had the heat shield & bayonet lug and could be "Slam fired".
In all honesty I did not notice the barrel length at the time although it was an original, circa 1914-18 so presumably had a 20" barrel.
I assumed that it was section 1 as magazine held more than 2 rounds.
I haven't seen the guy at the range for some time but if I do I shall enquire.
Cheers,
Dave

[saddler]

The lever action is 27.5" long and the pump is 38.5", making it more of a pain to conceal if a criminal wanted to use it to commit a crime.

...and criminals ALWAYS make sure that their guns are not in breach of the firearms acts, don't they???

A pump-action or semi-auto s/g with a sub-24" barrel IS a Section 5 gun
HOME OFFICE rules have direct bearing - local FEO's getting confused on what is what is another matter; anyone want to volunteer to be the first test case in the High Court??

[boyscout1982]

The lever action is 27.5" long and the pump is 38.5", making it more of a pain to conceal if a criminal wanted to use it to commit a crime.

...and criminals ALWAYS make sure that their guns are not in breach of the firearms acts, don't they???

A pump-action or semi-auto s/g with a sub-24" barrel IS a Section 5 gun
HOME OFFICE rules have direct bearing - local FEO's getting confused on what is what is another matter; anyone want to volunteer to be the first test case in the High Court??

hehe, law makers seem to think that their firearms act will hold water with crims...But then they think that they can legislate against inanimate objects.

Technically a shotgun that can "slam fire" is also in breach of regulations as it can fire more than one shot without releasing the trigger.

Deja vu... I think we are just recycling old arguments against silly laws.

[flintlok]

Technically a shotgun that can "slam fire" is also in breach of regulations as it can fire more than one shot without releasing the trigger.

Deja vu... I think we are just recycling old arguments against silly laws.

Note that all shot guns fire more than one shot with the release of a trigger. I wouldn't want to polish terms to much as the anti's use our own language to outlaw certain firearms. The term "assault weapon" is a classic example which was originally used to describe selective fire military arms. The words "assault weapon" that were so casually used by some folks were in turn was use to ban civilian semiautos. My semi auto AK only bears a passing resemblance to the selective AK fire that the world well knows.